It is pretty clear to me that this is still a standalone solution. 5G modems are BIG, hot and require lots of pins/power. I don't think they can integrate them (at least that is the case for X55 and now X60) into the main SoC. Tbh, if I were to buy a new phone now, I would buy a 4G variant of the SD865. 5G is still in its early days.
Qualcomm has said they CAN integrate it and in fact both Qualcomm and Samsung do at the midtier level. The discrete modem is simply due to the rapidly changing tech and time to market concerns. The radios were ready before the SoC allowing more time for testing the RF side of the house. The modems will be integrated eventually. Not sure if that will happen in the successor of the 865 or the one after that but it will happen.
I don't see your point, the integrated midrange 5G modems are smaller and slower, arguably how they should be since the speeds won't be supported by infrastructure, but still.
I don't see YOUR point. Both Exynos 980/765G are cheap 5G solutions, of course they are slower. What else do you expect? In fact MTK D1000 has a 5G modem that performs on par with X55 @sub-6. With next-gen 5nm SoC there's no way Qualcomm can't have integrated X55/X60, they just chose not to because it's cheaper to supply the discreet modem to everyone including Apple.
Well, first of all, if the lower performance is acceptable, then obviously it could be integrated, but this is not the low performance variant, that's why it can't be integrated, and when we say it can't, of course it's in the practical business sense, speaking in costs and profits, not feasibility in the realm of physics. As for MTK, they're known to look good on paper(mmWave also takes up too much die area), OTOH, the infrastructure won't support a test of peak speeds, which is why I said slow is "arguably how they should be", because the flagship modems are overkill, but it's not a discussion of whether or not overkill is otherwise justified because this issue is far from restrained to modem performance, so unless they seriously mess up, they won't be faulted for not reaching their claimed performance, simply because the claims can't be verified. So claiming that discrete X55/X60 is "cheaper" compared to potential integration is not an argument because cheaper could mean the difference between marketable or not(with the gain in efficiency of integrated considered), and I don't think you can easily brush off the concentration of heat and power @yeeeeman noted either.
Your argument is flawed from the beginning. Firstly, MTK's modem is actually LESS efficient than Qualcomm's and taking up more space on comparable speed. If MTK can do it with N7, Qualcomm will have zero problem integrating X55/60 with N5/5LPE.
And secondly, 5G modem's heat "issue" is a non-issue, you almost NEVER require CPU and GPU and BP to work at full speed at the same time, I couldn't think of one scenario. AND 5G infrastructure won't actually support 7.5Gbps anyway, so integrating a 2.3Gbps or 7.5Gbps modem makes practically zero difference. In fact, since bigger modems require more DSPs, running those at lower speed actually save you some power vs fewer DSPs@higher speed for the same bandwidth.
As for cheaper, it is a fact. Qualcomm HAVE TO make the discreet modem. With the increased cost of chip design @ 7nm and below, it is simply cheaper to use modules. Sure overall the silicon is bigger, but yield goes much higher as well. I believe Qualcomm might start using 2.5/3D packaging instead for a couple of years.
X55/60 support mmWave, D1000 doesn't, and I stressed that while it's largely wasted space, it's due to the state of mmWave infrastructure, you still can't do the math cutting it out of Qualcomm's modems. Regarding the heat, 5G is less efficient on almost any load compared to 4G, I'm just not sure how much of an impact that makes. As for the rest, you're really not disagreeing with me.
It is not just 5G vs LTE, the amount of bandwidth means the amount of hardware to do the DSP, so your 80MHz aggregation going 320MHz would be 4x as many hardware to support it, then the battery life, and the heat, and the physical dimension to handle such battery size. Nobody will do it unless there's a demand, and nobody would buy it unless the deployment is there.
They’re also going to continue to need a standalone version for Apple, as they won’t allow them to integrate it into Apple’s chips. Apple has always used standalone modems, so this won’t be any different. In addition, if they want to continue to have Apple as a customer, as they do, they will have to offer them something so that their (Apple’s) modem project won’t come to fruition too soon.
I'm pretty sure QC said there won't be a 4G-only SD865. (Well, it doesn't have a modem at all--you have to use the X60 chip, and that only comes with 4G+5G).
You forgot about the 765g soc. It has the 5g modem integrated already. They’ve already have a example , that they can do that. The 865 doesn’t have that, but the next revisions will.
They can, but probably won't. Maybe they'll use 2.5D-packaging next time but before Apple ditches Qualcomm altogether some time beyond 2023, they will probably keep doing the AP+BP dual chip setup.
Meh, whatever. I'll get excited about 5G when US-based TELCOs stop gimping us with monthly data allotments or charging excessively for an unlimited plan. And I suppose that infrastructure build out to historically underserved, backwards, redneck-infested rural areas like mine will take a good couple of years or more anyway.
Nah, internet speeds in the US have improved dramatically over the last couple of years. But you're right, shooting stuff is always fun, and now that we have faster internet we have even more time to shoot stuff, and each other...
@Ian: Thanks! Any comments or statement by QC on what kind of materials are suitable to build cases that let mmWave 5G signals through to their antennas? Do they have a list and/or design guidelines? Anything metal is probably out, but I am not even sure if many polymers are transparent to mm waves.
"Qualcomm was proud to promote last year at its Tech Summit that out of the 150 devices that were using X50/X55 modems, all of them were using Qualcomm’s RF front-end solution." I am not sure whether creating and enforcing a monopoly via shameless extortion is something Qualcomm should be "proud" of.
True, and they still seem to be brute forcing what's already overkill--none of the carriers around the world will provide service saturating the peak capacity of the X55 in the next few years.
...if ever, I mean. It's not like the 4G modems have reached their limits now that people are already being pushed from 4G to 5G, this could very well happen to 5G too.
Fraud in mmWave is not about saturation, it is about physics - specifically, power requirements to emit it (which is proportional to frequency for those who have forgotten high school ph), and the inability of those specific frequencies to penetrate anything in the real world, even fog, let alone your head.
Nobody's claiming that mmwave has the same range as lower frequencies, but that's not the purpose -- it's there to give high data rates in dense usage areas with lots of basestations (or rmote radio heads if you want to be precise). Fog or rain have little effect over ranges of a few hundred meters which is the target, buildings have a far bigger effect. Of course you might be right and all the hundreds of expets on radio propagation who've been working non-stop on 5G might be wrong, but I wouldn't put money on it ;-)
I can't be the only one who is perplexed by Qualcomm's slides being watermarked by Anandtech. Those are Qualcomm's slides that they showed to the media, they are not Anandtech properties. I find it questionable and objectionable.
2G pretty much does not exist anywhere anyway, it was removed to free frequency ranges. The same will happen to 3G very soon. It is not like the old protocols provide better ranges with their old and weak error correction algorithms. Low frequencies provide better ranges (at the same power), like T-Mobile's 600MHz.
The only reason the carriers still offer 2G or 3G is because of long-duration contracts to support it. For example, cars with built-in 2G/3G telemetry are not getting a 4G modem upgrade, and resale/off-lease values would drop if those features no longer worked. There are also shipping container tracking devices, and little desire to do a wholesale replacement just because they are still 2G devices. Verizon's plan for CDMA is currently planned to end at the end of 2020, deferred from the original date of end of 2019. At that point they will only support 4G or 5G voice, but it will still take time to remove all of their network equipment used for 2G/3G. I expect much of the equipment on towers to remain until there is a need for a tower climb, such as to install 5G equipment. They are likely to be disabled, so existing 4G or 5G equipment on the tower can reuse the same frequencies. The first thing to go will be paying maintenance fees to network equipment suppliers.
I am no expert but, I would think there is less and less reasons to have a 2G modem in rich developed countries, but I am wondering about most under-develop countries in Africa...
If you would happen to travel there with a smartphone that doesn’t support 2G network, you would not have any coverage...
So it could maybe happen, but maybe more between 2025 / 2030 timeframe or even later...
It may be years before handset mfgs. can fully integrate mmWave into mobile phone modems. mmWave makes sense when using wide channels to achieve hybri fiber-cable equivalent broadband speeds. The problem stems from higher power for transmission at the abobe 6 GHz frequenices. That is needed to process 100s of megahertz aggregate bandwidth signals. Similar to fiber-cable modems, high bandwidth consumes more power. The use of Qualcomm's advanced power saving technologies and 5 nm design rules helps to reduce the power, however, it is up to several times higher than current sub 3 GHz 4G. That higher power budget still does put mmWave close to being on par for range and building penetration, That is a reason why sub 6 GHz and mmWave carrier aggregation will be very important - to reduce average power usage so that battery life suffers less.
mmWave can be usefull whenevcer a device is line powered. It can be used in mmWave to sub 6 GHz relay type 5G gNB netowrk node devices that are line powered and have high-gain or MIMO array antennas to extend the range and throughput over what can normally be achieved. These gNB can then connect to users via either 4G, 5G, WiFi or wired USB or Ethernet/GigE. The multi Gb aggregate speeds can replace fiber optic and cable so long as the relability is achieved including redundant pathways,
The usefullness of mmWave for fully mobile devices remains questionable IMO. This new modem will help but won't do magic to turn short-range coverage on its head.
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shabby - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
How big are these 5g modules and how many are needed in a phone?1_rick - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
They're not saying and they recommend at least 3.SydneyBlue120d - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Do You think the Snapdragon 865 successor will integrate it?yeeeeman - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
It is pretty clear to me that this is still a standalone solution. 5G modems are BIG, hot and require lots of pins/power. I don't think they can integrate them (at least that is the case for X55 and now X60) into the main SoC.Tbh, if I were to buy a new phone now, I would buy a 4G variant of the SD865. 5G is still in its early days.
TheUnhandledException - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Qualcomm has said they CAN integrate it and in fact both Qualcomm and Samsung do at the midtier level. The discrete modem is simply due to the rapidly changing tech and time to market concerns. The radios were ready before the SoC allowing more time for testing the RF side of the house. The modems will be integrated eventually. Not sure if that will happen in the successor of the 865 or the one after that but it will happen.Raqia - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
The TSMC 5nm touts improvements in analog density:https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-manufacturers/i...
Qualcomm has typically incorporated prior gen. modems into their leading edge SoCs so the 875 will probably have (a version with) the x55 integrated.
yeeeeman - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Ok, fair enough, didn't thought about this.s.yu - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
I don't see your point, the integrated midrange 5G modems are smaller and slower, arguably how they should be since the speeds won't be supported by infrastructure, but still.levizx - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
I don't see YOUR point. Both Exynos 980/765G are cheap 5G solutions, of course they are slower. What else do you expect? In fact MTK D1000 has a 5G modem that performs on par with X55 @sub-6. With next-gen 5nm SoC there's no way Qualcomm can't have integrated X55/X60, they just chose not to because it's cheaper to supply the discreet modem to everyone including Apple.s.yu - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
Well, first of all, if the lower performance is acceptable, then obviously it could be integrated, but this is not the low performance variant, that's why it can't be integrated, and when we say it can't, of course it's in the practical business sense, speaking in costs and profits, not feasibility in the realm of physics.As for MTK, they're known to look good on paper(mmWave also takes up too much die area), OTOH, the infrastructure won't support a test of peak speeds, which is why I said slow is "arguably how they should be", because the flagship modems are overkill, but it's not a discussion of whether or not overkill is otherwise justified because this issue is far from restrained to modem performance, so unless they seriously mess up, they won't be faulted for not reaching their claimed performance, simply because the claims can't be verified.
So claiming that discrete X55/X60 is "cheaper" compared to potential integration is not an argument because cheaper could mean the difference between marketable or not(with the gain in efficiency of integrated considered), and I don't think you can easily brush off the concentration of heat and power @yeeeeman noted either.
levizx - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
Your argument is flawed from the beginning. Firstly, MTK's modem is actually LESS efficient than Qualcomm's and taking up more space on comparable speed. If MTK can do it with N7, Qualcomm will have zero problem integrating X55/60 with N5/5LPE.And secondly, 5G modem's heat "issue" is a non-issue, you almost NEVER require CPU and GPU and BP to work at full speed at the same time, I couldn't think of one scenario. AND 5G infrastructure won't actually support 7.5Gbps anyway, so integrating a 2.3Gbps or 7.5Gbps modem makes practically zero difference. In fact, since bigger modems require more DSPs, running those at lower speed actually save you some power vs fewer DSPs@higher speed for the same bandwidth.
As for cheaper, it is a fact. Qualcomm HAVE TO make the discreet modem. With the increased cost of chip design @ 7nm and below, it is simply cheaper to use modules. Sure overall the silicon is bigger, but yield goes much higher as well. I believe Qualcomm might start using 2.5/3D packaging instead for a couple of years.
s.yu - Friday, February 21, 2020 - link
X55/60 support mmWave, D1000 doesn't, and I stressed that while it's largely wasted space, it's due to the state of mmWave infrastructure, you still can't do the math cutting it out of Qualcomm's modems.Regarding the heat, 5G is less efficient on almost any load compared to 4G, I'm just not sure how much of an impact that makes.
As for the rest, you're really not disagreeing with me.
PandaBear - Wednesday, February 26, 2020 - link
It is not just 5G vs LTE, the amount of bandwidth means the amount of hardware to do the DSP, so your 80MHz aggregation going 320MHz would be 4x as many hardware to support it, then the battery life, and the heat, and the physical dimension to handle such battery size. Nobody will do it unless there's a demand, and nobody would buy it unless the deployment is there.melgross - Friday, March 6, 2020 - link
They’re also going to continue to need a standalone version for Apple, as they won’t allow them to integrate it into Apple’s chips. Apple has always used standalone modems, so this won’t be any different. In addition, if they want to continue to have Apple as a customer, as they do, they will have to offer them something so that their (Apple’s) modem project won’t come to fruition too soon.jackiebond - Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - link
Very nice interesting...https://bit.ly/2VW2Qe91_rick - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
I'm pretty sure QC said there won't be a 4G-only SD865. (Well, it doesn't have a modem at all--you have to use the X60 chip, and that only comes with 4G+5G).reggjoo@gmail.com - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
You forgot about the 765g soc. It has the 5g modem integrated already. They’ve already have a example , that they can do that. The 865 doesn’t have that, but the next revisions will.levizx - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
They can, but probably won't. Maybe they'll use 2.5D-packaging next time but before Apple ditches Qualcomm altogether some time beyond 2023, they will probably keep doing the AP+BP dual chip setup.PandaBear - Wednesday, February 26, 2020 - link
They always started out separate until the 2nd generation. Getting the whole single chip wrong can be a big mess whereas just the modem wrong is ok.PeachNCream - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Meh, whatever. I'll get excited about 5G when US-based TELCOs stop gimping us with monthly data allotments or charging excessively for an unlimited plan. And I suppose that infrastructure build out to historically underserved, backwards, redneck-infested rural areas like mine will take a good couple of years or more anyway.smilingcrow - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
At least least while you wait for your banjo duets to download over a 56k dialup modem you can go into the yard and shoot something.niva - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Nah, internet speeds in the US have improved dramatically over the last couple of years. But you're right, shooting stuff is always fun, and now that we have faster internet we have even more time to shoot stuff, and each other...ksec - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Is the photo of the X60 Modem to scale? It seems to be even bigger than X55. I mean they could have picked a better picture.Holliday75 - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Are you viewing it on a cell phone or a 85" TV?eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
82" TV; I can see the error of my ways (:eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
@Ian: Thanks! Any comments or statement by QC on what kind of materials are suitable to build cases that let mmWave 5G signals through to their antennas? Do they have a list and/or design guidelines? Anything metal is probably out, but I am not even sure if many polymers are transparent to mm waves.Santoval - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
"Qualcomm was proud to promote last year at its Tech Summit that out of the 150 devices that were using X50/X55 modems, all of them were using Qualcomm’s RF front-end solution."I am not sure whether creating and enforcing a monopoly via shameless extortion is something Qualcomm should be "proud" of.
s.yu - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
You might wanna ask Huawei if any of their modems were paired with competitor RFs.nandnandnand - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Why did the AR/VR/XR article get nuked?adriaaaaan - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
I was wondering that, Google is taunting me with it on suggestionspeevee - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
The whole mmWave thing is a fraud.Best regards,
Physics.
s.yu - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
True, and they still seem to be brute forcing what's already overkill--none of the carriers around the world will provide service saturating the peak capacity of the X55 in the next few years.s.yu - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
...if ever, I mean. It's not like the 4G modems have reached their limits now that people are already being pushed from 4G to 5G, this could very well happen to 5G too.Whiteknight2020 - Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - link
Those feeds and speeds are irrelevant to the real market, which is edge aggregation, AI, inferencing, surveillance systems etc.s.yu - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
Then what is relevant? What significant advantage does 5G claim over 4G that's not speed or latency based?peevee - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
Fraud in mmWave is not about saturation, it is about physics - specifically, power requirements to emit it (which is proportional to frequency for those who have forgotten high school ph), and the inability of those specific frequencies to penetrate anything in the real world, even fog, let alone your head.peevee - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
That is what I mean:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1...
Look at the right side of the graph, near 10mm.
s.yu - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
...that too. All the while "6G" claims to use even higher frequencies.ijdat - Saturday, February 22, 2020 - link
Nobody's claiming that mmwave has the same range as lower frequencies, but that's not the purpose -- it's there to give high data rates in dense usage areas with lots of basestations (or rmote radio heads if you want to be precise). Fog or rain have little effect over ranges of a few hundred meters which is the target, buildings have a far bigger effect. Of course you might be right and all the hundreds of expets on radio propagation who've been working non-stop on 5G might be wrong, but I wouldn't put money on it ;-)wrkingclass_hero - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
I can't be the only one who is perplexed by Qualcomm's slides being watermarked by Anandtech. Those are Qualcomm's slides that they showed to the media, they are not Anandtech properties. I find it questionable and objectionable.SydneyBlue120d - Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - link
I wonder when they will start removing 2G and 3G connectivity from modems, I bet Apple will be the first one...AndrewPhilips - Thursday, February 20, 2020 - link
What happens when you enter an area of weak coverage. You get no data? I don't think they will remove it.peevee - Friday, February 21, 2020 - link
2G pretty much does not exist anywhere anyway, it was removed to free frequency ranges. The same will happen to 3G very soon. It is not like the old protocols provide better ranges with their old and weak error correction algorithms. Low frequencies provide better ranges (at the same power), like T-Mobile's 600MHz.jhh - Tuesday, February 25, 2020 - link
The only reason the carriers still offer 2G or 3G is because of long-duration contracts to support it. For example, cars with built-in 2G/3G telemetry are not getting a 4G modem upgrade, and resale/off-lease values would drop if those features no longer worked. There are also shipping container tracking devices, and little desire to do a wholesale replacement just because they are still 2G devices. Verizon's plan for CDMA is currently planned to end at the end of 2020, deferred from the original date of end of 2019. At that point they will only support 4G or 5G voice, but it will still take time to remove all of their network equipment used for 2G/3G. I expect much of the equipment on towers to remain until there is a need for a tower climb, such as to install 5G equipment. They are likely to be disabled, so existing 4G or 5G equipment on the tower can reuse the same frequencies. The first thing to go will be paying maintenance fees to network equipment suppliers.Diogene7 - Friday, March 6, 2020 - link
I am no expert but, I would think there is less and less reasons to have a 2G modem in rich developed countries, but I am wondering about most under-develop countries in Africa...If you would happen to travel there with a smartphone that doesn’t support 2G network, you would not have any coverage...
So it could maybe happen, but maybe more between 2025 / 2030 timeframe or even later...
open4g - Thursday, February 20, 2020 - link
It may be years before handset mfgs. can fully integrate mmWave into mobile phone modems. mmWave makes sense when using wide channels to achieve hybri fiber-cable equivalent broadband speeds. The problem stems from higher power for transmission at the abobe 6 GHz frequenices. That is needed to process 100s of megahertz aggregate bandwidth signals. Similar to fiber-cable modems, high bandwidth consumes more power. The use of Qualcomm's advanced power saving technologies and 5 nm design rules helps to reduce the power, however, it is up to several times higher than current sub 3 GHz 4G. That higher power budget still does put mmWave close to being on par for range and building penetration, That is a reason why sub 6 GHz and mmWave carrier aggregation will be very important - to reduce average power usage so that battery life suffers less.mmWave can be usefull whenevcer a device is line powered. It can be used in mmWave to sub 6 GHz relay type 5G gNB netowrk node devices that are line powered and have high-gain or MIMO array antennas to extend the range and throughput over what can normally be achieved. These gNB can then connect to users via either 4G, 5G, WiFi or wired USB or Ethernet/GigE. The multi Gb aggregate speeds can replace fiber optic and cable so long as the relability is achieved including redundant pathways,
The usefullness of mmWave for fully mobile devices remains questionable IMO. This new modem will help but won't do magic to turn short-range coverage on its head.
Manofwind - Saturday, February 22, 2020 - link
Still it's not integrated into CPU.QuickTechSolution - Saturday, February 29, 2020 - link
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sattajuhi - Thursday, March 12, 2020 - link
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