Software is hard.. Its not something you can throw more money or people at and get it done faster. This was strictly a computer science problem. These are cutting edge devices with a lot of new technology incorporated in uncommon ways.
It's not like I have no experience with MS, they make good hardware, I like them but dang their software always have messy start or just a mess till its death (OSes).
Cutting edge? SB, yeah, but SP4?
I know dang things happens especially due to MS try to support almost everything making it more complex. Hence the warning, waiting for couple of months to avoid headache and waste of time.
Easy there cowboy. The problem isn't "software", the problem isn't Windows, it was firmware and drivers. It's evident just looking at the release notes.
Lol, I'm sure you didn't mean firmware and drivers when you claimed that "Microsoft's software was messy". You specifically talked about the OS. In context, I stand uncorrected.
@Spunjji: "Did you read his original post? "Typical MS, always got held back by their software."
You stand corrected, buddy."
Given that for most of the company's history, Microsoft didn't make a whole lot in the way of hardware (and the associated firmware/drivers), I can see where lilmoe might have gotten confused and assumed the original statement was about their OS, Office Suite, or other software.
Thanks for the clarification attempt, but when you read lots of comments on the internet, you know when someone is just trying to undermine a platform as a whole. Some people go completely dramatic without contributing anything to solve/diagnose said problems.
The problems associated with Surface Book/Pro4 aren't exclusive to these devices. Internet forums are flooded with user complaints for various PCs that Microsoft clearly don't design nor support. These are driver issues mostly from Intel graphics and chipsets, WiFi modules, audio and biometrics. These issues are understandable since Windows 10 comes with a new driver stack.
I own a Haswell HP Probook and I'm also facing the same sleep and display driver issues, and the occasional failing WiFi. Display driver issues are much more frequent when my PC resumes from sleep. I've disabled sleep and will wait for stable drivers.
That being said, Microsoft DID have problems with the detaching mechanism for their Surface Book, but that was fixed promptly in less than 2 weeks after launch.
Do you always blame the OS when your Intel drivers need an update? In particular on a cutting edge system? I find it stunning that you can read an article (snicker, we all know you didn't read it) and after seeing that 90% of the update is third-party, you can still say "Typical MS, always got held back by their software."
Windows is great, 10 overall is my favorite OS ever, and both Windows and the Surface Pro 4 are most certainty "cutting edge". Do we seriously have to have this fanboy hate on here of all places?
The "new silicon" and "computer science problem" uniquely affected them, one of the few entrants into the premium laptop market. Huh, weird, all the other Skylake + Win10 laptops slept like babies. Seems like Microsoft didn't get the benefits of vertical integration much.
ikjadoon: "The "new silicon" and "computer science problem" uniquely affected them ..."
I don't think it was inherently a Skylake issue. As far as I can gather, it seems like it has more to do with the UEFI programming and, in the case of the Surface Book, the hybrid related software (release button, mode change, etc.). Probably less to do with the former than the later seeing as the Surface Book problems are fairly widely known, but the author didn't seem to know about any potential issue with the Surface Pro 4. Their hybrid solution is unique and I will give them a little slack there, but the UEFI programming shouldn't differ substantially from other players and speaks to Microsoft's relative inexperience in the field compared to the big players.
ikjadoon: "Seems like Microsoft didn't get the benefits of vertical integration much."
Meh. Extensive past experience with a broad range of diverse devices trumps vertical integration. Apple has both. Google taps industry players for the experience and works closely with them to get as much of the vertical integration benefits as practical. Microsoft has vertical integration, but it will take time to gain the experience in hardware and its associated firmware/drivers.
??? We have three here... Two Core M, one i5 and I sold my i7 as I didn't need it and instead moved to the Core M. I shut it down, don't use hibernation or any of that stuff and, frankly, we've been pleased with the device. No idea where 'hell' comes from.
er how rude, get real -who's more likely to be a marketing droid -the guy struggling with well documented problems or the one come on here to say 'nope, no problems!'
as to 'shutting down' lol i bought a $2000 tablet device not a DTR, i expect sleep to work
No one said there weren't any "problems". What ticks me off with people like you is the drama they're trying to sell out of a rather smallish problem, one that Microsoft itself has little to do with.
What matters now is that the issues are allegedly being addressed. So if you have nothing to contribute towards the truth behind those claims (which poses the question if you really own one), then please sit on the side and wait for future articles analyzing those "fixes", or real users posting feedback.
@lilmoe: "What ticks me off with people like you is the drama they're trying to sell out of a rather smallish problem, one that Microsoft itself has little to do with."
Point of interest, this problem isn't smallish. It doesn't affect everyone and there is a workaround (that may not be agreeable to all), but when Panos Panay decides to handle this personally, it isn't small.
Also, it may not be entirely Microsoft's fault, but Microsoft produces the device and the end user isn't likely care if it is the fault of Microsoft, Intel, Realtek, nVidia, or 3DFX. The expectation is on Microsoft as the developer of the device purchased to fix it. Credit is due if this patch does in fact fix the problem. Note: Purposeful use of companies who couldn't possibly be at fault was purposeful.
I didn't state that there were no problems. We still,on occasions, have the display driver crash. I'm trying to stop people stating, "It's been hell" which it, in all honesty, hasn't.
Just check the Amazon reviews for Windows 10 :-O Piles of people attacking Microsoft in astonishingly insane fashion, usually based around the idea that they're being "spied" on, because Microsoft has your email if you use a Microsoft email account LOL
So, Panos lies on October 6th, stating that no such problem exists. Then, after the "very hard computer science problem" is suddenly discovered, they patch it. Now that's a premium laptop!
Now if the surface book only has USB C "and" a GPU that wasn't 2gb.... How does Dell and Microsoft make such a premium laptop with a 4k display but give it a 2gb GPU?
Actually it has 1GB it looks like. I don't know for sure how reasonable that is or not. 2GB ain't bad. I've got 2GB on my Geforce GTX 680m circa 2012, which is a more powerful GPU than the one in the Surface Book, and it's not being held back from 2GB that I'm aware of (not that I've played every game).
I've had sleep issues with every single Windows 10 install I have, even from a clean install with nothing else on there. The most common issue is it ignores my sleep time settings if I put it to sleep and wake it up-just starts going to sleep after five minutes from that point forward unless I reboot.
I see that and other weird behavior on all Windows 10 systems I use.
Obviously that's severe, but I don't actually use sleep mode, so it doesn't really affect me, and otherwise I love 10.
I mean to say I see that and other weird behavior regarding SLEEP mode on all the Windows 10 systems I use. Other than the sleep weirdness, which isn't particularly relevant to me as I don't really use or need sleep mode, I've really liked Windows 10.
Heck, just found out it's got Hyper-V built in. I didn't even know that...don't even need third party software for that now! (It's in the Pro version that is.)
I'm shutting down my desktop and laptop - with W10 and SSD, boot time is really non-issue for me. I do keep my Surface Pro 3 in sleep all the time, and cannot recall any sleep issues but this one: when I put tablet to sleep and connect it to dock (for charging), it wakes up - and stays waked up. It should go back to sleep if I don't swipe or interact with it within a few seconds; it doesn't, so I have to press power button again to put it back to sleep.
Silly but not show stopping, much as I am concerned.
On a side note: I could understand grudge toward Microsoft... if others don't have same issues all over the place. But they do, so this is nothing less than a norm when new tech is being released. My wife's iPhone 5s had fair share of stability and battery drain problems on release, which got ironed - mostly, and then she upgraded it to iOS8 and had much more issues. Even now, over 3 years after release, her phone will require soft reset every few months. My mother's iPad Mini drops wifi like RAID drops flies, on same wireless access point that works like a charm with everything else - including her old original iPad. And I can remember my Apple-loving friends having their fair share of problems with both new machines and new OSX releases.
Something MS did to Windows 10 shortly after releasing 1511 (suspiciously around the time of the SP4/SB's release to distribution) totally broke suspend on my Dell Venue 7130. Most of the time it just locks up and drains the batter(y/ies) and also has a tendency to BSOD whenever I pull it out of the keyboard dock.
Looks like this is a bunch of firmware patches to fix a similar issue with the SP4/SB itself, I'm kinda sad it's not a software update because it sounds like my issue might be related. TBH, my solution was just to stick Android-x86 on my tablet, sine it's basically unusable in Windows at the moment unless I want to go back to 8.1 or 10 RTM (10240) and somehow kill Windows Update.
It's kinda frustrating because everything but the three 'Windows' tablets in my household run Windows 10 brilliantly, but it seems to have big issues with what they used to call 'connected standby' - Windows 8.1 was perfectly stable on the same hardware.
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WorldWithoutMadness - Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - link
Typical MS, always got held back by their software.3-4 months after release, this might be the time reference on when to get their devices after release.
jasonelmore - Wednesday, February 17, 2016 - link
Software is hard.. Its not something you can throw more money or people at and get it done faster. This was strictly a computer science problem. These are cutting edge devices with a lot of new technology incorporated in uncommon ways.WorldWithoutMadness - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
It's not like I have no experience with MS, they make good hardware, I like them but dang their software always have messy start or just a mess till its death (OSes).Cutting edge? SB, yeah, but SP4?
I know dang things happens especially due to MS try to support almost everything making it more complex. Hence the warning, waiting for couple of months to avoid headache and waste of time.
lilmoe - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Easy there cowboy. The problem isn't "software", the problem isn't Windows, it was firmware and drivers. It's evident just looking at the release notes.Sorry to burst your bubble.
WorldWithoutMadness - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Wow, a genius.Sorry to interupt your very brilliant thinking.
Can you tell me since when firmware and drivers aren't software?
lilmoe - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Lol, I'm sure you didn't mean firmware and drivers when you claimed that "Microsoft's software was messy". You specifically talked about the OS.In context, I stand uncorrected.
Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Did you read his original post? "Typical MS, always got held back by their software."You stand corrected, buddy.
BurntMyBacon - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
@Spunjji: "Did you read his original post? "Typical MS, always got held back by their software."You stand corrected, buddy."
Given that for most of the company's history, Microsoft didn't make a whole lot in the way of hardware (and the associated firmware/drivers), I can see where lilmoe might have gotten confused and assumed the original statement was about their OS, Office Suite, or other software.
lilmoe - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Thanks for the clarification attempt, but when you read lots of comments on the internet, you know when someone is just trying to undermine a platform as a whole. Some people go completely dramatic without contributing anything to solve/diagnose said problems.The problems associated with Surface Book/Pro4 aren't exclusive to these devices. Internet forums are flooded with user complaints for various PCs that Microsoft clearly don't design nor support. These are driver issues mostly from Intel graphics and chipsets, WiFi modules, audio and biometrics. These issues are understandable since Windows 10 comes with a new driver stack.
I own a Haswell HP Probook and I'm also facing the same sleep and display driver issues, and the occasional failing WiFi. Display driver issues are much more frequent when my PC resumes from sleep. I've disabled sleep and will wait for stable drivers.
That being said, Microsoft DID have problems with the detaching mechanism for their Surface Book, but that was fixed promptly in less than 2 weeks after launch.
Alexvrb - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Do you always blame the OS when your Intel drivers need an update? In particular on a cutting edge system? I find it stunning that you can read an article (snicker, we all know you didn't read it) and after seeing that 90% of the update is third-party, you can still say "Typical MS, always got held back by their software."Wolfpup - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Windows is great, 10 overall is my favorite OS ever, and both Windows and the Surface Pro 4 are most certainty "cutting edge". Do we seriously have to have this fanboy hate on here of all places?ikjadoon - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
The "new silicon" and "computer science problem" uniquely affected them, one of the few entrants into the premium laptop market. Huh, weird, all the other Skylake + Win10 laptops slept like babies. Seems like Microsoft didn't get the benefits of vertical integration much.BurntMyBacon - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
ikjadoon: "The "new silicon" and "computer science problem" uniquely affected them ..."I don't think it was inherently a Skylake issue. As far as I can gather, it seems like it has more to do with the UEFI programming and, in the case of the Surface Book, the hybrid related software (release button, mode change, etc.). Probably less to do with the former than the later seeing as the Surface Book problems are fairly widely known, but the author didn't seem to know about any potential issue with the Surface Pro 4. Their hybrid solution is unique and I will give them a little slack there, but the UEFI programming shouldn't differ substantially from other players and speaks to Microsoft's relative inexperience in the field compared to the big players.
ikjadoon: "Seems like Microsoft didn't get the benefits of vertical integration much."
Meh. Extensive past experience with a broad range of diverse devices trumps vertical integration. Apple has both. Google taps industry players for the experience and works closely with them to get as much of the vertical integration benefits as practical. Microsoft has vertical integration, but it will take time to gain the experience in hardware and its associated firmware/drivers.
fallaha56 - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
er noi've owned this device for 2 months
it's been hell with MS promising me fix after fix
just enough to stop me sending it back
damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
??? We have three here... Two Core M, one i5 and I sold my i7 as I didn't need it and instead moved to the Core M. I shut it down, don't use hibernation or any of that stuff and, frankly, we've been pleased with the device. No idea where 'hell' comes from.lilmoe - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
It comes from the land of hyperbole.Some people will take any opportunity to spread FUD.
fallaha56 - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
er how rude, get real -who's more likely to be a marketing droid -the guy struggling with well documented problems or the one come on here to say 'nope, no problems!'as to 'shutting down' lol i bought a $2000 tablet device not a DTR, i expect sleep to work
lilmoe - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
No one said there weren't any "problems". What ticks me off with people like you is the drama they're trying to sell out of a rather smallish problem, one that Microsoft itself has little to do with.What matters now is that the issues are allegedly being addressed. So if you have nothing to contribute towards the truth behind those claims (which poses the question if you really own one), then please sit on the side and wait for future articles analyzing those "fixes", or real users posting feedback.
BurntMyBacon - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
@lilmoe: "What ticks me off with people like you is the drama they're trying to sell out of a rather smallish problem, one that Microsoft itself has little to do with."Point of interest, this problem isn't smallish. It doesn't affect everyone and there is a workaround (that may not be agreeable to all), but when Panos Panay decides to handle this personally, it isn't small.
Also, it may not be entirely Microsoft's fault, but Microsoft produces the device and the end user isn't likely care if it is the fault of Microsoft, Intel, Realtek, nVidia, or 3DFX. The expectation is on Microsoft as the developer of the device purchased to fix it. Credit is due if this patch does in fact fix the problem. Note: Purposeful use of companies who couldn't possibly be at fault was purposeful.
damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
I didn't state that there were no problems. We still,on occasions, have the display driver crash. I'm trying to stop people stating, "It's been hell" which it, in all honesty, hasn't.Wolfpup - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Just check the Amazon reviews for Windows 10 :-O Piles of people attacking Microsoft in astonishingly insane fashion, usually based around the idea that they're being "spied" on, because Microsoft has your email if you use a Microsoft email account LOLUltraWide - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Well played sir, I see what you did there. :)damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Do you mean, "Typical Intel, it's their stuff and drivers have always been a bit poor"damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
P.s THANKS MS for actually bothering to fix your products. Tell that to Samsung.titanmiller - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Nice! Installing now!ikjadoon - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
http://i.imgur.com/ykiP4TB.jpgSo, Panos lies on October 6th, stating that no such problem exists. Then, after the "very hard computer science problem" is suddenly discovered, they patch it. Now that's a premium laptop!
damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Welcome to marketing.Glad they're patching stuff though. A positive exists.
Nintendo Maniac 64 - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Just two days ago there was an article lamenting the lack of 16:10 displays.Yet here we are with a 3:2 aka 15:10 device...
(yes I realize said article was talking about monitor-sized displays!)
DPOverLord - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Now if the surface book only has USB C "and" a GPU that wasn't 2gb.... How does Dell and Microsoft make such a premium laptop with a 4k display but give it a 2gb GPU?damianrobertjones - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
What does the standard consumer need USB c for? I have a 950xl and USB C is a pain in the rear. New cables etcWolfpup - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Actually it has 1GB it looks like. I don't know for sure how reasonable that is or not. 2GB ain't bad. I've got 2GB on my Geforce GTX 680m circa 2012, which is a more powerful GPU than the one in the Surface Book, and it's not being held back from 2GB that I'm aware of (not that I've played every game).SaolDan - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
1% drain for 3.5 hours off sleep. Im really happy about thatSaolDan - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
All green on sleepstudyxthetenth - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
Yep, It's sleeping great and coming back up from sleep nice and consistently. Seems to have gotten the bug.Wolfpup - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
I've had sleep issues with every single Windows 10 install I have, even from a clean install with nothing else on there. The most common issue is it ignores my sleep time settings if I put it to sleep and wake it up-just starts going to sleep after five minutes from that point forward unless I reboot.I see that and other weird behavior on all Windows 10 systems I use.
Obviously that's severe, but I don't actually use sleep mode, so it doesn't really affect me, and otherwise I love 10.
Wolfpup - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
I mean to say I see that and other weird behavior regarding SLEEP mode on all the Windows 10 systems I use. Other than the sleep weirdness, which isn't particularly relevant to me as I don't really use or need sleep mode, I've really liked Windows 10.Heck, just found out it's got Hyper-V built in. I didn't even know that...don't even need third party software for that now! (It's in the Pro version that is.)
nikon133 - Thursday, February 18, 2016 - link
I'm shutting down my desktop and laptop - with W10 and SSD, boot time is really non-issue for me. I do keep my Surface Pro 3 in sleep all the time, and cannot recall any sleep issues but this one: when I put tablet to sleep and connect it to dock (for charging), it wakes up - and stays waked up. It should go back to sleep if I don't swipe or interact with it within a few seconds; it doesn't, so I have to press power button again to put it back to sleep.Silly but not show stopping, much as I am concerned.
On a side note: I could understand grudge toward Microsoft... if others don't have same issues all over the place. But they do, so this is nothing less than a norm when new tech is being released. My wife's iPhone 5s had fair share of stability and battery drain problems on release, which got ironed - mostly, and then she upgraded it to iOS8 and had much more issues. Even now, over 3 years after release, her phone will require soft reset every few months. My mother's iPad Mini drops wifi like RAID drops flies, on same wireless access point that works like a charm with everything else - including her old original iPad. And I can remember my Apple-loving friends having their fair share of problems with both new machines and new OSX releases.
Daneshbod - Saturday, February 20, 2016 - link
I have a SP4, after this update, I'm not able to connect to my Sony Bravia TV by WiDi, does anyone else have face the same problem?Daneshbod - Saturday, February 27, 2016 - link
I deleted all paired devices on the TV, now mirroring is working again.Azurael - Wednesday, February 24, 2016 - link
Something MS did to Windows 10 shortly after releasing 1511 (suspiciously around the time of the SP4/SB's release to distribution) totally broke suspend on my Dell Venue 7130. Most of the time it just locks up and drains the batter(y/ies) and also has a tendency to BSOD whenever I pull it out of the keyboard dock.Looks like this is a bunch of firmware patches to fix a similar issue with the SP4/SB itself, I'm kinda sad it's not a software update because it sounds like my issue might be related. TBH, my solution was just to stick Android-x86 on my tablet, sine it's basically unusable in Windows at the moment unless I want to go back to 8.1 or 10 RTM (10240) and somehow kill Windows Update.
It's kinda frustrating because everything but the three 'Windows' tablets in my household run Windows 10 brilliantly, but it seems to have big issues with what they used to call 'connected standby' - Windows 8.1 was perfectly stable on the same hardware.