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  • meacupla - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    I own a 100W rated USB-C cables from cablematters and a 90W rated USB-C GaN charger from Ravpower.

    I like the 90W GaN charger, but it's not as small as the 60W GaN charger from the same company.
    I like the sturdy construction of the 100W rated USB-C cable, but it's not as flexible as a 60W rated cable.
    Some devices don't like it when you use a USB-C charger that doesn't provide enough power.

    What am I getting at?
    Do we really need 240W PD?

    A 240W charger is going to be massive, even with GaN tech.
    A 240W rated cable is, very likely, going to be quite stiff, if it is going to meet safety standards.

    And then there are going to be consumers that will get confused when the charger/cable they bought doesn't work with their 240W consumption device, despite it being plug compatible.
    because, you know, reading is hard.
  • SydneyBlue120d - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Check the Einova products ;-)
  • meacupla - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Einova's 65W charger is basically the same size as ravpower's 61W charger?

    Take whichever and times its volumetric size by 4. That's going to be your "small" 240W GaN tech charger
  • Arsenica - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    The efficiency gained by using GaN transistors in <20V power supplies has been of only a few percentage points and the difference is usually negligible comparing a MOSFET to a GaN USB-PD supply at <12V.

    However these new higher voltage and current USB-PD modes will increasingly show the advantages of GaN transistors.
  • Skeptical123 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    If I'm not mistaken the benefit of using GaN transistors for stuff like Type-C power supplies is that they can operate at a higher temp. The limiting factor on contempered charges that are made to be small dumping enough heat into the case to keeping the silicon based components below 125C. GaN can go a lot hotter. Also any efficacy gains of course help keep thermals down but even if it was not there still would be benefit using GaN.
  • Dolda2000 - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    >Do we really need 240W PD?
    I think the move to USB-C as a standard for power delivery is pretty nice. I've been especially enjoying not being bound to the OEM charger that used to ship with laptops, and actually being able to buy standardized chargers from third parties, so that I can have several of them without them becoming useless when I switch laptops.

    The modularity of USB-C with all the resulting range of capabilities isn't a strictly good thing, for sure, but it's also not a problem for me personally, and I don't really think it's my business to worry about problems that I don't have. Meanwhile, there are a ton of laptops that need more than 65 W, and being able to extend USB-C power delivery to them too sounds really nice.

    240 W in that small connector is pretty crazy, and I'm quite impressed that they're even able to pull it off.
  • dotjaz - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    He/she/they have completely missed the point. 240W charger is ALREADY ubiquitous for gaming laptop. Anything said about wattage and cable (which is just about everything) is complete moot and irrelevant because the alternative WE ALREADY HAVE is worse. Not doing 240W would be stupid.

    The only genuine concern is the CONNECTOR during unplug events. The cable isn't any getting any thicker at all being rated at 5A still.

    And unsurprisingly wasn't even mentioned by OP, because lack of understanding how electricity works I assume.

    >240 W in that small connector is pretty crazy, and I'm quite impressed that they're even able to pull it off.

    Well, since effectively all they did was extending PPS to 48V, the only hard part was getting the connector unplug mechanism right, which isn't to say is easy, but it's really not surprising.
  • Samus - Monday, May 31, 2021 - link

    If we want to enable portable workstations with decent GPU's powering 4 monitors through a USB-C dock running off the host, then yes we need 240w.
  • Daviii - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    240W chargers will be detached from the wall just like every "thick laptop" charger out there, but those laptops will be eventually compatible with USB-C docks like the "thin" ones.
  • dotjaz - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    >What am I getting at?

    Nowhere.

    >Do we really need 240W PD?

    Yes we do

    >A 240W charger is going to be massive, even with GaN tech.

    So the current 100W+ charger with a different connector isn't? My laptop uses 19.5V11.8A charger. What do you suppose the size would be without USB PD?

    >A 240W rated cable is, very likely, going to be quite stiff, if it is going to meet safety standards.

    And again, what do you expect current charger to use? Wireless? My laptop uses 11.8A rated cable, how is that any better than 5A cable rated for 48V - which requires only 0.7x the cable girth because only current matters to the cable, high voltage only affect the connectors during unplug event, not even plugin.
  • dotjaz - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    >A 240W rated cable is, very likely, going to be quite stiff, if it is going to meet safety standards.

    Nope. A 240W rated cable is EXACTLY as stiff as 100W to meet safety standards because the cable part is identically specced. The cable part isn't rated by power but only currents - still at 5A, and there is no practical insulation difference between 24V and 48V not at 5A. What will be different is you'll have two bulkier connectors attached to the same cable.

    >And then there are going to be consumers that will get confused when the charger/cable they bought doesn't work with their 240W consumption device, despite it being plug compatible.

    That's a non-issue again. It will work, at reduced power. Every single cable I bought lists explicitly what wattage it supports, and 100W cables all have bulkier connectors and thicker cables (for 5A). The 48V connectors would need special certification and marks on them just like Thunderbolt). If you are confused about a 60W cable (thin cable with no emark/smaller connector) not being able to charge at 240W, you shouldn't be using whatever you are trying to charge.
  • dotjaz - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Because those are most likely smart devices with a screen that'll certainly tell you the cable isn't rated 240/100W. All current laptops I've seen already do that.
  • futrtrubl - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    It's an option, if you don't need 240W don't get a 240W charger or cable. Just like if you don't need 100W then get the smaller charger and cable. However, if you do need 240W then the charger and cable are going to be no bigger and stiffer than a non-USB 240W charger and cable so you loose nothing.
    As to customer confusion this actually does something for that with marking of cables, sources and sinks.
  • danbob999 - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Nobody is forcing you to buy a 240W charger, but yes, we need it.
    Many laptops need more than 100W to actually charge the battery while using the system at full load.
    Currently, USB-C charging is limited to thin and light laptops because of the 100W limitation.
  • Xajel - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    > A 240W charger is going to be massive, even with GaN tech.

    240W is the upper limit, most laptops don't require 240W chargers, even high-end office-grade laptops requires a maximum of 130W (like the XPS 17), Only gaming laptops requires such higher power which is expected duo to the GPU included. Yet some laptop manufacturers (Lenovo please read this), supply an enormously bulky 230W with relatively no-so-powerful laptops that might in extreme cases requires 130W (maybe 150W max) (like the new still not available ThinkBook 16p).
    Basically, only a charger with enough power to charge your laptop and maybe some other gadgets you have. But I would take a single charger with me anytime instead of carrying 2-3 chargers!!

    > A 240W rated cable is, very likely, going to be quite stiff, if it is going to meet safety standards.

    It should be that much, the cables kept the same 5A current which is the main concern to use thicker metal wires, but they will however require slightly better insulation for the higher voltages. The only concern is about the capacitors, and if a laptop doesn't support Type-C charging and requires 20V of higher current (like 11A), then a bulky external step-down voltage regulator will be required.
  • AdrianBc - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Any 17 inch mobile workstation laptop or gaming laptop requires at least 150 W (105 W + 45 W) continuously only for the GPU + CPU (which consume more than 200 W for short times) not counting any other components, e.g. display, DRAM and SSD.

    So the chargers for such laptops start at 180 W. Moreover also in previous years, but more frequently with Comet Lake and Tiger Lake, the TDP for the CPU is raised to 65 W, raising the power for GPU+CPU to 170 W, which leads to a total power of at least 200 W.

    So 240 W should be enough for any laptop, but most 17 inch laptops would not be content with much less than this.
  • andyo - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    "240 W" cables are still going to be 5A cables, there's no reason for them to be thicker than the ones already available. The physical changes are in the connectors and the capacitors as indicated in the article, and the data in the chip.
  • Eliadbu - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    Do we need 240W PD? Depends on your devices but some users that have bulkier and more power hungry laptop will definitely love to ditch the proprietary charger that you can only use and be able to use other chargers maybe more compact ones that fit your laptop voltage and current requirements.
  • grant3 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    "Do we really need 240W PD?"

    We certainly need higher than the current 100w standard. 240w is a good next step.

    "A 240W charger is going to be massive"

    Yes, existing 240w AC/DC converters are large, and will continue to be large. So what? The point of this standard is not to make power supplies smaller. The point is to standardize cables & ports to support higher power delivery.

    "A 240W rated cable is, very likely, going to be quite stiff"

    Maybe, and if that becomes a problem for anyone, they can choose not to use 240w rated cables.
  • Valantar - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    ... and? Is any of that actually an argument for not implementing this? Chargers for laptops of this wattage are already huge. This isn't making them any bigger, but it does make them standardized and far easier to service and replace. A 65W charger will always be smaller and lighter than a 240W one, but that hardly helps when your gaming laptop consumes 150-200W under load and you want to charge it while in use (or even not drain the battery while in use). You're trying pretty hard to make a problem where there isn't one.

    As for cables, they don't really need to get much thicker - they'll need a bit better insulation for the higher voltages, but the current is still 5A, so no more copper is needed. They're likely to be very similar, but more expensive due to the stricter specification.
  • watersb - Monday, May 31, 2021 - link

    The RAVPower 60W charger is optimal size vs performance. The 90W feels like 2x the size.
  • tuxRoller - Monday, May 31, 2021 - link

    Graphene!
    ;)
  • Duncan Macdonald - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    How long before a number of devices get burned out because the charger did not negotiate the voltage level correctly?
    "No Name" 5 volt only chargers are safe enough because they can not deliver a high voltage to the connected device - however a charger that (if things go wrong) could deliver 48v to a device designed for 5v could be a very expensive "cheap" charger.

    For safety I would recommend not using a charger that is capable of delivering a higher voltage than the connected devices can take (ie do NOT use a charger capable of more than 5 volts on any device that is not also rated for high voltage charging).
  • RSAUser - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    The spec is not that difficult to implement, if you stick with known brands it's definitely a non issue.
  • TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    5V is way easier to implement yeet we still hear horror stories of failed chargers. And those are much smaller 10-15 watt chargers.
  • arashi - Thursday, June 3, 2021 - link

    Or don't plug your $$$$ machine into a $ power supply?
  • Kaggy - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Interesting how this can start trickling down into all types of devices and maybe see a reduction in barrel adapters in the decades to come. It can protect against someone plugging in a higher voltage power adapter and frying the whole device.
    With promising battery advancements it would be interesting to see more higher powered devices turning portable.
    However i'm concerned if the cable connectors portion getting longer as they are prone to stress, maybe there's workaround in the specs sheet but I've seen some early generation docking connectors bending due to stress.
  • TheinsanegamerN - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    We've seen bending issues in out type C laptops. Both the cable and port bend just due to the stress of the thick 100w cable. Lets not even get into what happens when end users dont give the cable slack. The older barrel connectors were durable enough to take the strain for years, type C not so much.
  • Techtree101 - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    When would the first laptops likely become available with 240W connections? I'm considering an upcoming Alder Lake laptop, depending on the final reviews for them.
  • zodiacfml - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    We don't need it unless a laptop needs it. This reduces proprietary power adapters for laptops and the it can be reused if the device dies and not worth repairing.
    I have multiple laptop chargers here at home which I refuse to throw away but remains unused and one is more than 12 years old.
  • Frank_M - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    The real fun starts when USB renaming stars. Can't wait. USB C# Gen 2 x 4 100w.
  • qlum - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Just wondering, wouldn't stepping down from 48v in case of 240w chargers be somewhat problematic at least in smaller devices. Then again if it's pulling 240w it's probably not that small.
  • Valantar - Monday, May 31, 2021 - link

    Most DC-DC converters run at 94-96% efficiency if designed well, so yes, there will be some loss there. 240W would then produce 9.6-14.4W of heat, which is definitely not nothing - it's a full U-series CPU worth of heat. But it should be very manageable in a decently designed system. Of course if they're able to do this conversion in the CPU and GPU's existing VRMs by tweaking the designs, that would remove most of these conversion losses - it would be slightly less efficient than today due to the wider range of the conversion, but not by 10-15W. Of course they'd still need some low-scale conversion for the rest of the system, but a motherboard, RAM and a couple of SSDs don't need much power.
  • stephenbrooks - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    If I tape a fibre optic cable to a 240V/13A UK mains cable, that theoretically beats this on both power and bandwidth.
  • boozed - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Yes but who wants to put a switchmode power supply inside their smartwatch?
  • stephenbrooks - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    I'd like to see a smartwatch that requires 240 Watts!
  • RSAUser - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    Well, I am a fan of the torch mode on watches, I'm sure I can get a screen bright enough with that power usage...
  • edzieba - Tuesday, June 1, 2021 - link

    How do you think Bond charges his laser-watch?
  • Wereweeb - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    Well, but if I tape TWO fiber optic cables to THREE mains cables, I can theoretically beat your theoretical cable in theoretical power and theoretical bandwidth! And I'd have to carry ten kilograms of bullshit around in my bag to make use of it. I am so smart and have so many brain cells inside my skull.
  • iphonebestgamephone - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link

    You mean theoretical brain cells
  • Smell This - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link


    There is all kinds of stuff to unpack in here. Thanks, AT.

    So ... USB-PD R3.1 EPR mode is 240W. Is it really? Or, is the sustained delivery 80% or 200w?
  • flyingpants265 - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    What exactly is the point of this? Presumably we had DC power supplies before, why do I care if it's USB-C now? I don't see the benefit.
  • Lord of the Bored - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link

    Because USB-C! We need one plug for everything and all other plugs are terrible forever(until USB-D comes out)! Using actual charger ports designed to carry high wattage is SO two years ago!
  • flyingpants265 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    I guess it makes sense to have a standardized power connector..
  • grant3 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    More power over USB-C lets us use more powerful laptops with USB-C docking stations.
    Standardized power over USB-C lets you use the same charger for many different devices.
    Standardized power over USB-C lets you more easily replace a lost or broken charger.

    You may not care about these features, but they don't hurt you either.
  • Pixelpusher6 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    The company I work at is a Dell shop. We provide our engineers with the Dell Precision. We have seen a very high failure rate with regards to the USB-C charging. The laptop will just cease to charge via the docking station / USB-C port, and it is not a result of physical damage or the docking station which are brand new WD19TBs. The fix is to have Dell replace the entire mainboard, which presents it's own set of problems sometimes. Thankfully the barrel connector was able to be used until we could get it repaired. I estimate 15% of these models have had or will have this issue over it's lifetime.

    When we started receiving the new model Latitudes and Precisions with the barrel connector absent, and USB-C charging the standard, it made me think. It's possible we received a bad batch of computers with QC issues. But given the problems experienced I am not overly excited for this transition.
  • grant3 - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    If dell starts replacing 15% of its laptops' mainboards because of thunderbolt chip failures, those QC issues will disappear pretty damn fast.

    Right now the issue may seem smaller to dell because such a large % of customers only use the barrel connector for power.
  • milkywayer - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    Dell isn’t exactly the leader in reliable hardware. Just because they outsource the board manufacturing to a terrible lowest bidder doesn’t mean it’s a usb c issue. My M1 MacBook Air has had zero issues charging via usb c in over 6 months.
  • edzieba - Tuesday, June 1, 2021 - link

    That's down to Dell, not USB Type C.

    Our Latitudes will die even if the Type C port is not being used at all! Chip near the top-left of the sys board pops, laptop refuses to boot on battery or under power unless a USB device is connected to the Type C port during boot (and will die a second or two after it is disconnected after booting).
  • arashi - Thursday, June 3, 2021 - link

    No issues with batches of USB-C HP so far, other than a batch of bad batteries.
  • Valantar - Sunday, May 30, 2021 - link

    Wait, is 12V output actually not a part of the USB-PD spec? That's rather weird given how many USB-C PD chargers I have that can output 12V. Is it some sort of optional extra? It's extremely useful given how ubiquitous 12VDC is in low power applications at least. Still, this might explain why the Dell USB-C chargers I have skip 12V entirely.
  • zepi - Thursday, June 3, 2021 - link

    That is correct, 12V is not a standard USB-C voltage.
  • watersb - Monday, May 31, 2021 - link

    This is the most informative coverage I've seen so far on 240W USB-PD.
  • watzupken - Thursday, June 3, 2021 - link

    While its great that USB Type C will be able to support 240W charging, there are a few concerns here.
    1. What if one uses a 240W type C charger, but use a cable that supports only 60W or 100W? Will the charger be smart enough to limit power output? I think there is a risk of overworking/ overheating the cable,
    2. As expected, some crazy phone makers will start pushing crazy speed charging. While speed charging is great to get some juice into the phone in short amount of time, at this sorts of power, the heat produce for the smaller batteries in phones will be massive. Longevity of the battery is questionable, so is safety.

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